peterj
Peerie Magnie
Posts: 53
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Post by peterj on Mar 21, 2007 16:27:10 GMT 1
I saw that the Wind farm vs tourism thread was in danger of being sidetracked into a discussion about urban 4wd's so I thought it was worthwhile starting a new thread. Cars and other IC engined vehicles are often brought up in the debate on things environmental. Unfortunately, the level of debate is often lacking in serious thought and usually leans heavily on condemnation of big cars and their owners. Whilst I am no fan of the cult of the urban 4wd et al, the actual mileage run up by these unnecessary beasts is usually well below the national averages, and in effect their actual contribution to the overall carbon footprint is actually comparitively small. A small improvement in the emissions of the vast small to medium vehicle fleet would swamp the removal of every large car on the road, so I have heard. What you must also consider is something which is just starting to get some well deserved airplay, and that is the concept of "dust to dust" cost (financial as well as environmental). I was initially surprised to learn that Land Rover, with it's very high percentage of vehicles still on the road, has one of the best records in this field, with the savings of additional manufacture costs and related energy expenditure outweighing the extra financial/energy costs related mainly to fuel consumption. I would suggest that one thing not generally looked at is the trend towards bigger and more powerful cars through the mass market sectors. Look for example at the relative size and horsepower of a 1975 VW Golf, and it's 2007 equivalent. What has driven this trend? Well despite news stories to the contrary neither individuals nor families have increased in size significantly over the period. The additional horsepower "required" today certainly isn't because the average traffic speed has increased. What to do? Well first of all, continued and increasing incentives to change the bulk vehicle fleet over to "diesel" fuel would help hugely I believe. Secondly I would love to see a very strong incentive to keep the existing vehicle fleet on the road much longer in order to reduce the manufacture of unnecessary new vehicles. I would hazard a guess that the majority of vehicles in the western world do not wear out, they are merely neglected into an early grave - in the UK generally through rust (keep the things properly clean and this problem generally goes away folks). This brings me to my last point (sighs of relief all round?). It's a lot easier to buy a good condition, well maintained, reasonable mileage "luxury" car of say 15 year old vintage than it is to buy a similar small or medium sized car, despite the disparty between numbers originally registered. The amount of resources and energy required for both were ball park similar in the first place. This certainly backs up the dust to dust cost figures I've been seeing. How about some financial incentives - road tax etc to encourage older vehicles to be used for longer? Interesting article btw, if you were considering a Prius as your contribution to saving the planet: clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188It is similar to quite a few I've read lately.
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Post by bonna on Mar 21, 2007 23:27:40 GMT 1
Blied ta hear fae dee again.
A well-argued piece - but du's maybe forgotten just how fast cars become "dust" in Shetland - clean or otherwise they don't last like they will in a sunny desert! Although there is very little (in any climate) that has greater longevity than a big Jap tank.....
The main reason many of us serial new car purchasers do it is reliability, or at least freedom from worry if it ain't. Many folk don't know how to keep an old car alive nowadays, or even if they do, don't have the time to hok with it. And cars (especially engines) are being made ever less hok-able with. For your eminently sensible proposal to work perfectly, there would need to be widely available warranty-type schemes available for older cars, at reasonable cost.
Of course, there's always another argument - why are we still manufacturing large "luxury" vehicles at all? Should all new cars not now be strictly pared-down to keep weight as low as possible, with an engine no bigger than is needed for the purpose? And diesel power (until something even more economical comes along) compulsory? I'm not suggesting we all have to run around in tiny Citroen C1-style 70mpg diesel boxes, although the majority of folk could make do with them fine. Some people do genuinely need bigger cars or 4WD's, but these can be minimally-powered and -equipped as well. Last thought - just what is the point in making anything for sale in the UK, for instance, that can do more than 70 mph flat out?
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peterj
Peerie Magnie
Posts: 53
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Post by peterj on Mar 22, 2007 10:46:03 GMT 1
Dir wid a been a time when I wid a let da climate excuse stand. Certainly I am incredibly glad dat roost is no really an issue whare da Mazda is stored at da moment, bit da first 13 years o her life wis spent living in Melbourne - a seaside town wi some o da warst wind, rain, heat an cold cycles (an rust buckets o cars too) dat you are likely ta see anywhare.
Since moving ta Gozo, the idea o lookin efter cars better has been considerably reinforced. Da majority o cars here are kept absolutely immaculate, but a very small minority are da worst rust buckets I have ever seen (even da local Police Skoda - not twa wirds you pit tagedder aft - has a roost hole in da boot lid). Da amount o old cars here - Marina's, Hunters, Mini's are common on da road alang wi 120Y's, 1960's Corrolla's an da laek - is impressive. Gozo is da size o Fetlar, an dirs no getting away fae saat air.
What's da difference? I suspect da fact at cars are taxed higher, and average wages are much much lower conspires to make folk not view dem as disposable items. I grew up, laek maist Shetlanders I expect, wi da idea at you might wash a car wance or twice a year, and I canna mind ever hearin o onybody takken a year old car inta da panel beaters ta check an touch up da underseal. Oot here you canna walk doon ony street without seeing folk oot wasing an polishin dir cars.
Da same conditions wir applied in NZ up until da 90's (when dey started allowing cheap import o used Jap stuff), wi da same result. Da side benefit is dat dirs an incentive ta maintain and repair old stuff so dirs plenty o businesses dat offer aa da services you need.
As far as reliability goes, more and more manufacturers are supplying a standard 5 year 100,000 mile warranty. I think dat say a lot aboot da laeklihood o older cards havin reliability problems. My expectation is noo dat a car engine should last at least 130,000 miles afore needing any attention at all - a lot longer wi a diesel. Although I've driven many more miles in new company cars dan I have in da old stuff I've owned personally, aa da major breakdowns I've hed has been in da new wark wans. Maybe I've joost been lucky, or maybe aa da manufacturing faults have already been fixed be da time I've bought my latest 10 year aald?
I dunna mind da ideas at Bonna's pit forward fur da future by da wye. I widna be quite sae draconian maybe, bit takken fuel consumption an manufacture energy consumption inta da equation when settin car design design an construction rules wid achieve da same end? Pity dat wid mean an end ta some o da most interesting things on da road though.
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Post by benjiesmum on Mar 22, 2007 11:04:51 GMT 1
Trouble is that the new tax that Gordon Brown has put onto Chelsea tractors will affect farmers who need these vehicles for towing stock, feeds etc. This is where the whole thing falls flat on its face. Not enough thought again being put into government legislation.
The people it should hit (i.e. the "school run" mums and celebs) can afford the extra tax anyway. There should be a more punitive tax on the purchase price of the car which farmers could then reclaim but most others couldn't.
Bonna, I suppose luxury cars have to be made because it's freedom of choice in a democratic society. It would be a sorry day when we all had to ride round on bicycles or the equivalent of a Trabant because the government dictated so.
However, I think that it's not long before owning a huge gas-guzzling car will become non-PC - like fur coat wearing. Folk don't seem to like ostentation and greed these days for the sake of it.
Road tax to encourage people to use cars longer is a good idea that peterj had although it would need targeting at certain cars.
When it becomes more fashionable to have a small car people will buy them in droves. It's up to people like the "glitterati" and role models to lead by example. But, what would it be like if we saw the Queen on state ocassions in a Smart car!!!!
Perhaps like fridges, cars should be issued with efficiency ratings so that we could all make informed choices.
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Post by Admin Mal on Mar 22, 2007 21:47:38 GMT 1
The main reason many of us serial new car purchasers do it is reliability, or at least freedom from worry if it ain't. What about the depreciation on new cars?! The car we've got at the moment <I crashed t'other one > has done very well - we must have had it about 9 yrs <the longest Mr Fifi's had a car I think!> and got it at 1 yr old. It's no' lookin' bad for its age and is very comfy and good to drive. So we've probably had our money's worth out of it!
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Post by bonna on Mar 22, 2007 22:08:53 GMT 1
Peterj - I suppose du's right - wis idle Shelties just canna be buddered ta wash wir cars! Although in common wi most, I suspect, da mechanical reliability is a far bigger issue wi me dan da roost. Most modern cars will last 10 years here afore roost condemns dem, even if dir never washed at all - a common occurrence - by which time mine wid have gone weel ower 120k miles an I wid be highly unaesy aboot da continuin reliability. I wid also, ultimately, be facin an enormous "cost to change" when I disposed o my wirtless banger an bought anidder new een. I prefer ta spend less, mair aften - aesier ta budget for.
I tink dir a distinction ta be drawn atween a car as a desirable, but possibly inessential or even "luxury" possession; and a car as an absolutely essential, life-would-be-barely-possible-withoot-it, daily workhorse, which it is for many rural Shelties and others. I always have a sneakin feeling dat cars kept on da former headings get mair TLC, for some reason....
Benjiesmum, God forbid we should have to drive around in Trabants! All that horrible 2-stroke pollution........
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Post by bonna on Mar 22, 2007 22:18:37 GMT 1
Aye Fifi - the depreciation is not appreciated, but it's a trade-off for the good ol' warranty, and at least you know more or less what it will be in advance so you can budget for it better than you can for unknown repair bills - or that's my take on it.
The longevity of Mr Fifi's VW has been noted, believe me, and his commendably(?) thrifty nature remarked on........
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peterj
Peerie Magnie
Posts: 53
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Post by peterj on Mar 23, 2007 12:11:40 GMT 1
wis idle Shelties just canna be buddered ta wash wir cars! I still fit firmly inta dat camp mysel by da wye. I'll have ta mend me ways if I ever get around ta buyin a car here, or if I ever get round ta movin doon ta da coast in Australia. Definitely a case of "don't do as I do" at da moment! Mechanical reliability is something dat I've gotten less bothered aboot ower recent years. Ruth drove Frances ta school every day for 5 years in Nissan Exa 1500 turbo. It wis 16 years aald an hed ower 120,000 miles on it when we bought it, and I had mare brackdoons in twa new company cars in da same time. Da Toyota camper wi hed afore it hed 140,000 miles on it an da only problem we hed in 18 months wis an alternator failure. Da Mazda is a mere chicken, only havin joost turned 100,000 miles noo (60,000 when I dought her), bit maest o da same era wans I see for sale noo have twa or tree times dat on dem. I seriously considered buying a Mercedes Diesel wi 200,000 miles on it afore I bought da Mazda. Not exactly a big sample I keen, bit as I said if Hyundai are willing ta pit a full 100,000 mile warranty on, dir no expecting ta pay mony claims. I think at cars are noo close ta TV's an Fridges in reliability terms - gie dem fluids when da book says, an you needna worry ower much aboot failures for an awfil amount o miles. Australian taxi's are normally runnin out ta weel ower 400,000 miles nowadays, and dey presumably need reliability mair dan most ta mak money. Da main problem I wid tink is dat as cars get passed doon da food chain, folk less and less able ta afford ta maintain dem (weel dey tink dey canna afford it - definitely false economy I wid say) become da owners, and da poor car gets scrapped trow neglect lang afore it has ta be. Tough wan ta do anything aboot though.
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Post by mucklelaalie on Mar 23, 2007 12:34:32 GMT 1
I would have thought all car problems would be solved by the simple purchase from all of a Yaris... no? I know i know, no da best tailer tow-er... *stops before argument against Yaris curing the worlds ills can develop* *was there ever an argument for david... hmmm*
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Post by allen on Mar 23, 2007 15:48:52 GMT 1
Yes - bit dir Cooncil dusna elt dir roads wi tons o saat evey winter. My 8 year aald Fiesta i'll nivver get by an idder Mot an wi only 47000 miles on da clock.
I steyed in Gozo fur a couple o weeks aboot 4 years ago. A most splendid place - ferries ran athoot da hysteria we hae here, fok wir friendly, helpful etc, naebody peys muckle heed tae da Highway Code... In mony weys just lek whit Shetland wis 40 years ago, peerie crofts ootside da toons, Mirry Tillers an Iron Horses in every rig - naebody locked dir doors or cars. Bliss
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peterj
Peerie Magnie
Posts: 53
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Post by peterj on Mar 23, 2007 15:50:44 GMT 1
Sorry David, Da Yaris has joost been banned as it's now unnecessarily fast With the new 1.3 VVT-i under the bonnet, the Yaris hits a top speed of 175 km/h (109 mph), Toyota having suffered fae da "tak a fine enough 1 litre engine an turn it intae a unnecessarly powerful 1.3, instead o a more economical 900" syndrome. A diesel wan wid do me fine though......... I wis breifly heartened when da new Fiat 500 appeared on da telly dis morning. Ahh at last somebody makkin a nice lookin peerie car wi a sensible sized engine. Nope - engines ranging fae 900cc petrol ta 1300cc diesel. Kinda begs da question 500 whats? Answers on a postcard ta......................
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Post by mucklelaalie on Mar 23, 2007 17:20:53 GMT 1
dammit!
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Post by bonna on Mar 26, 2007 10:02:42 GMT 1
Naethin ta do wi cars (apologies), but allen paints a lovely pictir a Gozo - I noo understaand why du's dere, pj! Da trick'll be ta fin da nixt place ta move on tae, whan Gozo gits draggit, peerie bit by peerie bit, sneaky-laek so naebody raelly notices till it's happened, inta da ghastly modern world, as it inevitably will.
I'm sure du'll fin somewye!
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Post by Admin Mal on Mar 26, 2007 11:24:22 GMT 1
Is that the ones that run on kangaroo petrol..? <ducks and runs>
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Post by Admin Mal on Mar 26, 2007 11:33:00 GMT 1
Naethin ta do wi cars (apologies), but allen paints a lovely pictir a Gozo - I noo understaand why du's dere, pj! Da trick'll be ta fin da nixt place ta move on tae, whan Gozo gits draggit, peerie bit by peerie bit, sneaky-laek so naebody raelly notices till it's happened, inta da ghastly modern world, as it inevitably will. I'm sure du'll fin somewye! I know someone who moved to Croatia a few years back and he raves about it. Part of the reason <apart from the great food and climate> he says is that it isn't stifled by all the rules and regulations that we have here now and is more like things used to be.
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